Für's archive - man weiss ja nie, was bei einer

moderierten Gruppe durchkommt:

Jos Bergervoet wrote:

On 3/14/2014 2:48 PM, Hendrik van Hees wrote:

On 14/03/14 10:38, Wizard-Of-Oz wrote:

Jos Bergervoet<jos.bergervoet@xs4all.nl> wrote in news:53219f49$0$2891

'Indeterminate' can be any value, so it is not a single discrete value.

'Indeterminate' means that the observable doesn't take a value

No, "indeterminate" was used here for the state. And

that is nonsense, because as you say it only has

meaning in relation to an operator that describes

a particular observable. If that one is not specified

there cannot be any meaning in indeterminate.

For instance we could choose either Lx, Ly, or Lz

to classify an angular momentum state as determinate

or indeterminate, and the outcome could be different.

But those are all thougt to be projections from a richer

superspace and to pin that down anyway there is no other

mathematical model known as of yet.

So without a given operator there is no meaning in

determinate. In fact one can always construct an

Hermitian operator taylored to declare a certain

state "determinate", but also another operator that

makes it hopelessly indeterminate.

Because all we will ever have are models that should not,

but are, interpreted by as many men who were reflecting them.

.. but, when

measuring it you get one of its possible values with some probability.

How do you know that? If we follow the time evolution

described by quantum mechanics then your measurement

produces an evolving pure state which is at any time

a superposition of the eigenstates of your operator.

Your measurement device also evolves into a super-

position of states for measured results. Together

of course they form the tensor product of combined

states describing the total entangled state.

Quantum mechanics will not do more for you than

describing that process. (If you think there is more

you should add an additional theory, if you think

what QM describes is too much you must reject QM!)

...

Just models which can produce real numbers that can

never be said to be really equal because there is no

way to determine whether two such reals numbers (eg.

in two variables - model and measurement) are equal

(exactly - to the infinite extent) and thats why the

models needs to go via projections in order to make

any usable sense.

Seen in this light nature's determination or also her

indetermination is just a hypothesis for small talks...

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